The Value of Church Community

Josiah: 0:02

Welcome to Praxis, a podcast where we explore how to practice and embody the way of Jesus in our everyday lives. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen. Today we are continuing a series on what some experts are calling the Great Dechurching. We are currently living in the single greatest religious shift in American history. Forty million adults who once attended church no longer do so, and most of that change has taken place in the last 25 years. The result of this de-churching is more than just diminished church attendance the seismic shift is dramatically reshaping the communities we live in.

‍Josiah: 0:37

So why are people leaving the church? What exactly are they missing out on, and what does it look like to engage the de-churched in a Christ-centered way? Answering these questions is what we're setting out to do. We believe this is a discussion that needs to take place within our churches, because if we're to be faithful followers of Jesus in today's landscape, we must figure out what it looks like to engage a de-churched culture. So today we're going to spend some time talking about some of the things that people might be missing out on when they are not a part of a church community. So let's do it.

Katie: 1:23

Welcome everyone. My name is Katie. And I'm Mac and I'm Josiah All right, so it's October 31st as we're recording this.

Mac: 1:31

Adam's birthday.

Katie: 1:32

AKA Adam's birthday.

Josiah: 1:34

Mr Halloweeny.

Katie: 1:35

Yeah, mr, that's right. He's sitting here in a full-fledged costume to celebrate. I'm just kidding, he's not. It's a tradition, but I have to say it is not even November and I have started my Christmas shopping. Oh wow, it seems like the Black Friday deals get earlier and earlier every year. This year there was what.

Josiah: 2:00

Prime day. Like mid-October, there's a bunch of prime days.

Katie: 2:03

Yeah, I guess Black Friday wasn't really a thing. You know, when we were kids it was like you had Thanksgiving and then Thanksgiving dinner and then it was like 5 am the next morning the stores would open and then it moved to like midnight and then it moved to like right after Thanksgiving dinner and we had a tradition in my family of getting up really early and going to those stores and I loved it. It was really fun. My mom would always go, I'd sometimes go with her. But now it feels like that distinction doesn't really exist anymore. It just sort of like sales throughout the year and when is it Christmas shopping versus just shopping? But I really enjoy shopping for Christmas. I'm here for the early deals. I love it. I know I'm kind of unique or in a minority in that. So unique or in a minority in that. So where are you guys? Are you on the like I don't start thinking about Christmas shopping until December 23rd, or are you thinking about it like me, on Halloween?

Mac: 2:54

Well, I would like to distinguish between thinking about it and doing it, because I love to give gifts. Yes, I love it. We do know that about you. Yeah, I love to think gifts.

Katie: 3:04

Yes, I love it. We do know that about you.

Mac: 3:06

Yeah, I love to think about what someone would like. I like to pay attention, and then I just love the process of getting something that's unique to them that they might really enjoy. But I'm not so. I have ideas. I have some great ideas for my kids. I have some great ideas for Josie. I've been paying attention. We do some exchanges in my family. I have some great ideas for Josie. I've been paying attention. We do some exchanges in my family. I've been thinking about that, but I haven't started actually shopping for it yet. You know what I mean.

Katie: 3:34

You're thoughtful about it.

Mac: 3:36

I'm thinking about it and I've got some great ideas, but I'll pull the trigger closer to Christmas.

Josiah: 3:42

I experience gift giving very stressful why?

Mac: 3:48

just because they may not like it.

Josiah: 3:51

I just don't. I don't have an instinct for what would be a good gift, so I overthink it a lot and I'll either over buy or I'll under do it. Either it'll be really practical or it'll be way over the top and I don't do well. If there were other appropriate ways to just express my love and affection for people in my life, apart from gifts, I would do it 10 times over. I don't know, it's just stressful to me. It certainly can be. But, mac, I know you love a good deal as much as I. Over, I don't know, it's just stressful to me.

Katie: 4:25

It certainly can be, but, mac, I know you love a good deal as much as I do.

Josiah: 4:28

I do.

Katie: 4:28

And I will say one thing about starting early is you're able to kind of time like over the years I've been able to time like okay, I know this isn't the best deal, like I know this company and they're going to get a better deal.

Josiah: 4:37

See, that's part of the stress.

Katie: 4:39

It's like a rush, except when you buy the thing and then it does go more on sale. Oh yeah, it's the worst. And then a week or two later, there you sit. Yeah, that would be bad, yeah.

Josiah: 4:51

Yeah, I don't care about any of that. If I want something, I just want to get it, and if someone needs something, just get it.

Mac: 5:01

I don't like the stress of all the maneuvering. I do like a good deal, but I don't like getting swept up into the timing. You know what I mean. If I come across a deal and I'm looking awesome.

Katie: 5:11

It's probably not good to be obsessed.

Josiah: 5:14

I wouldn't, say that I'm obsessed.

Katie: 5:18

I'm mindful of how much mental energy I put in, but I appreciate knowing when the best deals are and be able to get something for someone that's meaningful for them at a good price.

Mac: 5:29

The other part of this for me is I have some convictions around, like when it's too early to really start trending towards Christmas. So like you know we've done this before with like hey, when is it a solid to start listening to Christmas music Like now is not the time. You know, like Oh's definitely the time.

Katie: 5:44

Yeah, that's kind of what I was hoping to provoke in that question. I have no shame towards it being too early.

Mac: 5:50

Clearly.

Katie: 5:51

Yeah.

Josiah: 5:52

Honestly, the only thing that affects my desire to want to start listening to Christmas music early is the weather. It's been hot. It was 70-some degrees yesterday. Yeah, it made me upset, but I still listen to Christmas music anyway.

Katie: 6:07

You did.

Mac: 6:08

Oh wow, we put up our tree, probably like the weekend after Thanksgiving, and that's when. I'll rip out the Christmas music and we'll rock that through the holidays. So that's just me. You guys can do your thing.

Josiah: 6:22

Yeah, I do, like all the nostalgia, all the feelings of Christmas.

Mac: 6:26

Well, speaking of gifts, today's podcast hopefully will be a gift. We are in a series right now on what's being dubbed the great de-churching. Right now in the United States, we're experiencing the largest religious shift in all of American history. It's estimated that roughly 40 million people who were once connected to a church, meaning they attended church at least one time a month, have now left the church and they're going less than once a year. And this mass exodus has occurred all within the last 25 years, so a pretty compressed time period. And just to put this in perspective I was doing some math on this more people have de-churched, uh, in the last 25 years than the highest populated city in the world. You guys guess what the highest populated city is in the world?

Katie: 7:21

uh, hong kong, tokyo Okay.

Mac: 7:24

And so that's 39 million and that includes, like the greater Tokyo area, that number, maybe to put it in the United States, this is larger than the entire population of California, which is also 39 million people. Or to maybe bring it home to the Midwest, this would be like all the people from Illinois, michigan, ohio and conduct Kentucky combined. Okay, we're talking about a lot of people. This is a massive number of people. It's more people. More people have left the church in the last 25 years than all the people who came to faith during both the great awakenings and Billy Graham crusades. All of that combined, so it's a big deal.

Mac: 8:11

Um, the religious landscape of the United States is just shifting dramatically. Um, we see it, and many in the church are reeling. This is, uh, for many, this is disorienting. The church the church in the United States at least has gone from being sort of the majority to now increasingly a minority. The church has gone from holding a place of honor in society to now more of a place of dishonor. Whereas the church once experienced widespread acceptance, it's now experiencing rising hostility.

Mac: 8:47

And so in the last episode, we attempted to capture some of the primary reasons why people are de-churching. We tried to do that honestly and provide sort of a thick description or explanation of each one, and we offered some affirmation there's some things that we really want to affirm of why this is happening. Some legitimate things are being pointed out and we offered some challenge along the way. But today we want to ask the question okay, in light of that, are people missing out on anything? Right, for those who have left the church, what might we say they are missing out on? If anything, and I don't know, I feel like we've had some conversations behind the scenes that might be helpful, just to kind of like I don't know put out there around how we're posturing ourselves in this conversation, like we're bringing a posture to this discussion that I think matters, like we're bringing a posture to this discussion that I think matters, and okay. So, for instance, I was in a leadership team meeting last week and Katie, your dad, pulled out some quote from Socrates.

Katie: 9:56

Well, he was a philosophy major in college.

Mac: 9:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't remember what it was, but the point was he was saying that Socrates had this conviction that, like true conversation isn't about winning or proving you're right, but rather about engaging both parties in a way that leads to learning and greater insight. So the goal is mutual learning, and that's one of the convictions I bring to conversations like this. My goal isn't to win or to prove someone right or wrong. Right it's. I hope we're having a conversation together and for those that listening in it might just create a deeper insight and learning. Does that make?

Mac: 10:34

sense.

Josiah: 10:35

Yeah, yeah, I think another, I guess, conviction on how we orient to this issue or this topic is that it is much more than just a topic. Katie kind of alluded to it last time in our last episode, but it's really easy to hear those numbers and just see faceless people, but all of us maybe some of you even listening today, would find yourselves into the categories, like find yourself in those de-churched categories that we discussed last week, and so if we're going to do this in a Christ-centered way, we need to put faces to those faceless numbers. Right, these are real people, people that we know and love. I'm sure that if you're listening and you're a part of a church community, all of us could think of people that maybe once were part of one and aren't, and so yeah. So we're going to avoid the broad strokes, assumptions and judgments in order to be curious and compassionate towards people who have left.

Mac: 11:39

Yeah, there's some expectation setting I think we're doing, because I could imagine some people who are maybe firmly committed to a church listening in and being like, okay, this is where they're going to really stick it to them and tell them what they're missing out on, and we are going to name some things that in our opinion they might be missing out on. But to your point, josiah, that these are actual people. I was thinking about this and I realized, when I started to think about the people that I know personally who have de-churched, these are people that I really love and think are quite incredible. So there's no like internal animosity to go oh, here's my chance to kind of stick it to them or put them in their place. Most of the time, when I consider the people I know who have de-churched, I have genuine positive feelings towards them. I can empathize with some of the maybe reasons that they've left and part of me is like, oh, I wish you would come back, because you're exactly the kind of person that I'd love to have in our church community.

Mac: 12:43

These are awesome, incredible people who have a lot to contribute, and part of the reason why they left, I think, as we continue to go through, it is because we're actually not living into the very things we should be. So I just wanted to name that. If you're de-churched, maybe I know you, maybe I don't, but my guess is, if I did, I would love you. You know what I mean. Have I would love you. You know what I mean. Have a strong affinity for you, and my genuine desire is, like man, you could help our church become a more mature presence and embody the way of Jesus in the world.

Josiah: 13:13

Yeah, yeah, we can have a strong conviction about how people are meant to live in community with each other, and that strong conviction, combined with our love and, you know, affection for the people in our lives who are de-churched, means that we are like, you know. It does cause us to say just what? What you're saying like I would love to have you here, it's not a, it's not a, it's not, it's not my job to like try to give you a bunch of conviction and make you feel really bad and hopefully, like guilt you back into church.

Katie: 13:45

This is not what this conversation is meant to do or win an intellectual argument around.

Josiah: 13:50

It's just try to convince you to get back. This is us saying we're discussing all the reasons why church community is not just objectively important, but it's also important to us and we love and care about you, and so we want to be able to talk about it in a way that isn't trying to leverage you back, but is essentially saying this is what we're inviting you into, yeah.

Katie: 14:12

Yeah.

Josiah: 14:12

Yeah, I think that's right.

Katie: 14:14

Yeah. So I mean, I look around the table and obviously, each of us are a part of this church community. Yes, we all work here, but I think it's something that we don't just do because it's our day job. I think it's something that, at least for me, I know, defines like a big part of how I do life with Jesus and something that I really couldn't imagine being without. Like, honestly, my life would look radically different if I didn't have this faith community to come around me and encourage me and challenge me, et cetera, et cetera. So let's turn our attention there. What would you guys say when it comes to being part of a church community? What are some of the things that you would say yeah, this is something I really value, and without a church, I feel like I'd be missing out on.

Mac: 15:00

I'll take a stab at the first one and I'll just confess this first one that I'm going to name is more biblical and theological. It's not like versus experiential. I think a lot of people that I talked to who have left the church it's rooted in negative experiences and so on. So this one's more like a theological conviction. That I think is super important. But it starts with this observation that one of the primary themes throughout the biblical narrative is that God is working with an imperfect people to represent him in the world.

Mac: 15:36

All right, this is the story of scripture and if you're unfamiliar with it we can at some point maybe give an overview. But it starts with this guy named Abram who becomes Abraham. God starts with a specific individual, says I'm going to bless you and through you and your descendants I'm going to bless all people. And so you read this messy story in Genesis of Abraham's descendants kind of their journey, and eventually that becomes the nation of Israel journey and eventually that becomes the nation of Israel. And Israel was supposed to be a kingdom of priests who represent God in the world, so model God's way in the world and then are sort of a conduit of blessing as they love and serve other nations, and the story of scripture is that Israel fails on both of those fronts. Instead of being distinct and modeling God's ways in the world, they become like these surrounding neighbors, so they lose their sort of distinctiveness and the way they're supposed to represent God in the world, and then they also lose their heart for the surrounding nations, right, right. And yet and this is what is so shocking as you read the Old Testament and even into the New Testament is God continues to work patiently with this group of people that messes up over and over and over again. And I often wonder, you know, like? Why would God continue? He could do it by himself, god could do it all by himself, but he chooses to invite people into it and they keep messing it up. Why would God do this? And I'll be honest, I'm not sure the church has much to brag about compared to Israel. You know what I mean.

Mac: 17:16

Like Israel, seems to be the case that the church is also missing the mark in terms of representing God and living into the way of Jesus and also blessing the world. And yet God still, you know, calls the church the body of Christ and the bride of Christ and counts us as part of the family of God, and so I guess what I'm saying is a couple of things. One is it seems really important that God has a people that represent him, and in light of that, there's no such thing as like Lone Ranger Christianity. The whole idea that you can follow Jesus apart from the people of God is categorically unsupported in scripture. It doesn't exist. Part of following Jesus includes being part of the body of Christ, of which Jesus is the head. So it makes no sense to be like a dismembered toe. You know what I mean. Like it just doesn't make sense. Um, so that's the first thing. And then the second thing, or implication of this is this that being disconnected from the people of God means you're somewhat disconnected from the heart of God. God's heart is to have a people who belong to him and are joining God's work in the world. And the church is to be a place not of just voluntary association where you're getting your consumeristic preferences met. Rather, it's supposed to be a community you belong to so that you can better join God's work in the world.

Mac: 18:41

And I guess that's my first challenge to perhaps some of our listeners who have de-churched is I know that the church is imperfect. I know it's messy, I know there's annoying people in it. I'd be the first to tell you, having served in a church for almost 20 years, there's days I want to hang it all up and be done with it. It's exhausting and it's hard, but what keeps me going, one of the things that keeps me going, is the fact that God keeps patiently working with me. And God doesn't have to do that, and God continues to work impatiently with you know, patiently with imperfect people, and so that includes you too. And I don't know.

Mac: 19:24

I just sometimes hear this air of superiority among those, some of those who have left the church not everybody, but they sort of cast shade on some of the messy people that they had to interact with in the church, as if they're, like you know, above that. And again I get it, there's messy people in the church. I don't want to minimize the mess, but I will say this let's not pretend that you're somehow less messy. Yeah, like you're part of the problem too. Let's just acknowledge that if you find a perfect church and then you show up, you're going to mess it up. We all would. So this isn't just a church thing, this is like a humanity thing. You know what I mean. God bears patiently with all of us, and I just see jumping. Some people are jumping ship because it's just too messy and I want to go. Well, timeout. This is actually part of what it means to embody God's way in the world, which is to like, slowly and in a committed way, work with imperfect people.

Josiah: 20:19

Yeah, and to the I don't want to say to the credit, but I guess to validate some of the concerns of why you would jump ship is I don't think that the American church has been well-discipled into this missional framework of what it looks like to be God's people, right? And I think that's when, like when things get pressed and you know, you just name like hey, I'm a pastor, I've committed my life and devoted to this, and there's days I want to hang it up. Yes, but one of the reasons why you don't is a deep conviction and something you've been discipled into as to say, no, this is my conviction about what it means to be not just a follower of Jesus but a part of a community that is following Jesus, and I'm not willing to give that up because it is foundational to what it means to be a Christian. And so if you don't have that conviction, stuff gets messy, right, like it just starts falling apart.

Mac: 21:23

Yeah, yeah, like if we're going to care about the things God cares about. It's very clear that he cares about having a people who belong to him. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and so we shouldn't take it lightly to like um, jump ship from being part of that group.

Katie: 21:41

Yeah, this has certainly become real to me. I can point to a specific season in my life, probably close to 10 years ago, when this started to make sense and become more real for me. I think for much of my life I thought of my faith as just like, okay, me and God. I read my Bible and I go to church, but I go to church primarily to worship and to hear a message, and I get there right when it starts and leave right when it ends. What about giving?

Katie: 22:08

I mean well yeah, obviously there's that.

Katie: 22:14

But when Alex and I started going to our church in Madison about 10 years ago, there's a really strong sense of missional community there and I think it really opened my eyes to like, hey, I'm learning more about God just by doing life with other people who have a deep relationship with him but approach life differently than me different experiences, perspectives, different ideas and all sorts of things and really just pressing in with a group of people who were committed to causes that I might not otherwise be aware of or exposed to, who had struggles and issues that I wasn't dealing with myself, and just seeing how God met them in their life and how I could meet them and love and serve and learn from them.

Katie: 22:58

I had one woman I may have talked about this before in the podcast, but there's one woman who at the time I was working in politics and she kind of saw things differently and she approached me and was like, hey, would you want to get coffee? Like I would love to just like hear what you think and why you think the way you do and like what you do. And I was like, well, this is really different. No one's ever approached me that way before.

Katie: 23:18

And we ended up developing such a deep friendship that I never would have had If I wasn't part of a church.

Mac: 23:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess that's the first thing I would say is just that I think there's actually a theological foundational piece to church and it's connected to the very heart and mission of God and for me at least, I'm not willing to like disconnect from that lightly. Now, I'm not. I'm assuming, if you're listening in and you're de-churched, like it's, not like you're lacking a response to this, you know what I mean. This isn't like a mic drop moment. Oh, conversation's over. How do you imagine someone who maybe is de-churched and is listening in thinking through this variable?

Josiah: 24:05

Yeah, I would say that's not what I experienced being a part of a church and I'm probably able to do more of the hands and feet of Jesus type of work on my own and picking and choosing the things that I'm involved with in charity projects and things like that. Like I can find meaning and value in that and I don't necessarily need to have it at a church.

Mac: 24:34

Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this and I realized, you know, uh, we're going to create um space after each of these reasons or things we think people might be missing out on, to just kind of go how might, how might we interact with this one? And I was just thinking about this, there's sort of an overarching response, and you just named it, josiah. I think that each way, someone will respond to all the things we're going to talk about today centers on two things yeah, but the church I went to didn't really do that. That's the first kind of piece, and maybe I don't see any church really doing that well, so something related to yep, but the church isn't doing that. And secondly, I can find other spaces to do those things.

Mac: 25:21

Right, the church isn't the only place that I can, for instance, serve or to make a difference or to be connected to the mission of God. And when you put those together, it sort of forms this one-two punch, right, I didn't experience that and I can find it somewhere else, and I think what I would say is some of that's true. I think many churches aren't doing this very well. I'll acknowledge that. I do think some churches are, and I do think you can find micro-expressions of this in other places, but as this list grows throughout this podcast, here's what I'd say. What other community can you point to that's trying to do all these things we're going to point out today? Yeah, I don't think you'll find it.

Josiah: 26:11

You're sort of picking and choosing the elements of it that align most with yourself and then, but you're not getting it all in one place.

Mac: 26:22

Yes, and of course we're going to fall short. You know of doing all those things perfectly, but that's kind of one of my responses is like the church has set the bar pretty high in terms of what we want to be and how we want to live and I don't know, I can't name an entity that is trying to do that same thing.

Katie: 26:40

Yeah, right, yeah. So, mac, I hear you saying that the church is called to be a missional community, connected to the heart of God. Yeah, Another one I would name is the church is called to be a supportive community, where we give and receive and go through life together. The first sermon I gave here on staff was on Acts 2 a couple of years ago, and Acts 2 paints this beautiful picture of a Jesus-centered community and this is really like the first picture of a church we have. If you're reading the Gospels and reading about the life of Jesus, acts 2 kind of gives us this beautiful picture of the early church and it shows us a community that's devoted to teachings about Jesus and learning, devoted to fellowship together, devoted to sharing meals together and praying together. It says they share their possessions to give to anyone who had need and beyond that, they didn't even like consider their possessions their own. It says they held them all in common so that they could share and just kind of live these generous lives, and I think it just shows us that the church is a body of people that God uses to meet needs, like God's provider. Like you were saying, matt, god can do it on his own. He could provide for us, but he chooses to use people to provide for each other, whether that be physical needs, prayer, financial needs, whatever. And it's the people doing it. But they're not doing it on their own. They're doing it through the Holy Spirit. They're being powered by God to come alongside each other and give and receive. That's the idea of a church. We're giving. What do I have that can help support and edify and uplift others? And what do I need, which is just a? Really again, I think it's a unique thing. Yes, we can give and receive outside of a church, but there's something unique about doing it here.

Katie: 28:32

Okay, just a couple of weeks ago I received a text from a friend from church here. She reached out to a couple of us to say, hey, you guys, I'm going through. It's a really tough season. It's been a long stretch and I just really need some time to connect with my husband. We could really use a little day date. Is anyone able to watch our kids after church for a couple hours? And what if someone else was like, yeah, of course I'll take your kids? And I was like well, how cool is that? Like it's one thing to offer to meet someone else's needs, but I think there's a certain level of trust that's required to be able to write like be vulnerable to your own need and go. Hey, are you willing to take my kids and I just think that Are their kids good kids?

Mac: 29:10

Yeah, they're good kids. Yeah, yeah they're good kids.

Katie: 29:13

I would have watched them, but I had a conflict that day. But anyways, I just think there's something about real self-sacrificial love that exists in a church and really can't exist outside of a community of people that are all devoted and committed to living in the way of Jesus.

Mac: 29:30

Yeah, I think of one couple in our church who you know they're about my age, three kids like Joe's and I, and one of them was just recently diagnosed with uncurable cancer. So they're in this new reality. That is painful and hard and super difficult. And here's the thing is that this is a couple who they're both really competent people, they're gregarious, they have great friendships, so they have a community of people, of close friends, that are supporting them through this.

Mac: 30:10

However, every time I reach out and have a touch of people of close friends that are supporting them through this, however, every time I reach out and have a touch point with them, they talk about how much this church community matters to them and has been supporting them in this incredibly difficult season. And I think it gets at what you were talking about, katie. We're not saying that the only place you could experience reciprocal and supportive relationships is within a church Obviously not. However, I can point to countless people who have reciprocal relationships even outside of the church, but they're experiencing something different from the church and I just think that matters. I think that matters.

Josiah: 30:54

Yeah, there's a sense of connection that happens that might be difficult to find somewhere else, the connection that happens as you receive care and support from other people but also then, in turn, give that support away to others.

Josiah: 31:09

There's a certain level of connection that happens in relationship that might be difficult to find through some sort of program or other organization that tries to help. So if we're playing devil's advocate for a second to say, well, sure, that's all great, but there are plenty of places where people can have their needs, provided they don't necessarily have to go to a messy group of people called the church in order to do so. But I would say that I don't know of a place that would keep you in more connection and more in the know about what is the needs, about what the needs are within a group of people, than a church community that's really living into this. So it's like we have a I mean, this is a very simple expression, but there's a Facebook community page where people who are part of our church community- it's a closed group, it's kind of exclusive.

Mac: 32:09

You have to ask to be a part of it. No, but if you're a part of our church community, it's a closed group, it's kind of exclusive. You have to ask to be a part of it.

Josiah: 32:13

No, but if you're a part of our church community, you can be a part of it, and people post their needs on there all the time and you should see how quickly people respond to those. So, yeah, there's a sense of can I have my needs met and can I meet others' needs, in different systems, of course, but I don't know of a more holistic and complete network than the church community should be.

Mac: 32:40

Yeah, and I guess I want to maybe deepen it just for a second and say what's animating. That is something that's different than just a supportive community outside the church. Oftentimes, in other communities I belong to communities other than the church I find that the relationships, not exclusively, but they tend to be a little bit more a quid pro quo you do this for me and I'll do this for you, and that's how reciprocity works, not saying it always has to be that way or relationships can't go beyond that. But in the church there's something else that's animating our support of one another, and it's not a quid pro quo. What do I get from you?

Mac: 33:17

And it is the person of Jesus is animating how we show up. So people often give, not just because they want something in return, it's because of the like. The love of Jesus compels them and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Going back to what you were saying, katie, about Acts, chapter two, all those descriptors are due to the animating power of the Holy Spirit, compelling people to live in such a way. And that, my friends, I will say to you is unique to the church that the love of Jesus is what's compelling people to sacrifice of themselves in support of others, and the Holy Spirit is empowering them to do so in ways beyond what they'd be able to do on their own.

Katie: 34:01

Yeah, we're not doing it in our own strength.

Mac: 34:03

That's right.

Katie: 34:03

It's not just me being a good person.

Mac: 34:05

Right.

Katie: 34:06

There's something else at play.

Mac: 34:07

Right.

Katie: 34:08

Yeah.

Mac: 34:09

Yeah, so I can point to lots of things, whether it's that Facebook group or our care partners, I mean, there's just so many ways people are showing up and it's because of their commitment to Jesus is what's driving their support for other people wanting to show up in generous and self-sacrificial ways.

Josiah: 34:26

Yeah, the care and support that's being provided is being done out of an expression of um and uh, a reflection of who who Jesus is, and that is different from places where you might find care and support, although loving yeah, for sure, although loving, um, we reached the end of our own strength on our own and uh. Being a part of a community where we can kind of take each other in and out of ways that we're jumping in creates a much more sustainable.

Katie: 34:59

Well, yeah, and like my church in Madison story, like I think you're just going to be exposed to needs that you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to if you were just kind of hanging out with people that are kind of like you in your neighborhood or your gym or whatever. I think, being part of a church, you're going to be made aware of opportunities, needs that just otherwise you wouldn't be seeing, they wouldn't be in front of you.

Mac: 35:21

And again to play devil's advocate, if I were sitting with some of my friends that I know of de-churched, they would kind of do that one-two punch they go. I didn't experience that kind of love and support in a church community and I've actually found it in other places, you know, and I guess I would say yeah, I see that I see many churches failing to live into the supportive community, the vision of that that we're discussing today. And I'm not saying you can't find in other places supportive relationships. But I do kind of want to hold on to the conviction that at least what the church is called to do is animated by something different and the bar is higher.

Josiah: 36:00

Yeah, All right. So, being a part of a church community, what are they missing out on? Well, the church is a missional community that's connected to the heart of God in the world, a supportive community that is conduits of God's supportive and provision type of care for people. I would also add that the church is also an impactful community. So being a part of a community of believers enables us to live more impactful lives that really couldn't be fully realized on our own.

Josiah: 36:37

I think there are three main ways this plays out and I want to name them, kind of name all three, and then we can kind of unpack them a little bit. The first is joining God's work in the world collectively multiplies the impact we could have if we were just on our own. Second, I think that it increases our witness to a watching world when we are together as a community. And three, the church is a place for us to discover, shape and utilize our God-given gifts. So yeah, to unpack the first one, joining God's work in the world collectively multiplies the impact we could have on our own. I think of, like, missions organizations no-transcript, like in our more local communities.

Josiah: 38:03

For those of you who are a part of our church, you know that we have this whole category of groups called kingdom communities and the idea is that we're they're more centered around rather than just being an affinity group. They're centered around joining God's work in the world in one in some specific way, so that kind of becomes the, the center in which we're all oriented around. We have one, we have one around human trafficking, sort of trying to collectively discern what it looks like to be a part of changing things in that realm. One around racial peacemaking what does it look like to be a church that is a welcoming place and being a part of important change? And some of the other ones. What are some of the other ones we have?

Mac: 38:48

Student mentoring Mentoring students who lack parental support at home Some of the other ones. What are some of the other ones we have? Student mentoring yeah, mentoring students who lack parental support at home. Celebrate Recovery is a big one. I mean, I think we had over 30 people this past Thursday night at Celebrate Recovery which is really neat because it started with just like three or four people going hey, we want to create a space. We sense God asking us to create a space here, you know.

Josiah: 39:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So ultimately that the to boil it down like the being a part of a church community increases the impact you could have on your own in various ways and and the sustainability of it.

Mac: 39:26

You know what I mean. Like um, again, I've been at this church for a while and some of the partnerships that we've had for a long time um have outlasted the specific individuals who maybe were leading that um thing at one point in time. So an individual only has so much to give for so much time and they might go oh yeah, well, this season where I was really invested in that it needs to come to an end, or hey, this is happening in my life, I can't do it anymore. And in a community, well, that allows other people to step in who now are part of that work, and there's an ebb and flow to our ability to give in certain ways in certain times, and then we can't give as much or whatever. And so I just see maybe a sustainability piece that is really important as well, that is supported by a community. That can't happen if it's just up to me and my energy as an individual.

Katie: 40:15

And what's the saying? The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Is that the saying? Are you guys familiar with that?

Mac: 40:22

Yeah, I think so.

Katie: 40:23

Yeah, like the idea that when you all come together to do something, what you can do together is greater than adding up what each of us could do individually. That's right.

Mac: 40:31

That's right. This is kind of one of my critiques of not all non-denominational churches. But we belong to a denomination and man, our collective impact as a denomination is so much greater than just like a lone church plant. We have 700 international workers in the Christian Missionary Alliance and we're not supporting every single one of those right, there's no way we could. But we have a couple that we're really intentional about. But together, together, we're able to do something way bigger than we could as just a church by ourselves. You know what I mean and I just think that's neat. You mentioned witness Josiah and when kind of a church community has a greater shared witness. Now there's a lot that's compromising our witness in the world. The church is witness in the world right now. But here's a story that I think gets at this.

Mac: 41:20

When Josie and I first started to try to move toward our neighbors, get to know our neighbors, build relationships with our neighbors, we hosted a few parties like block parties, just cooking out and whatever, and we noticed very quickly we have 14 homes on our street or neighbors' families, and a couple of them have faith backgrounds, but they're not necessarily engaged on a regular basis.

Mac: 41:48

The vast majority of them do not belong to a church and are not necessarily following Jesus.

Mac: 41:53

Okay, so my neighborhood is sort of a mission field, for lack of a better word and we noticed when we hosted our first block party that their norms and ways of associating sort of overwhelmed the space. Not in like, I don't want to like, characterize it negatively, I'm just saying like the ways that they relate and showed up is what defined that space, and we ended up creating a kingdom, neighborhood, kingdom community with different groups from our church who lived near us, and one of the things we started experimenting with is supporting each other at our block parties. So just inviting a couple other people from our church to be present at our block parties significantly changed the dynamic. Now, all of a sudden, like the way that we do life was way more noticeable than just Josie and I together, and so I just think there's something about the impact I can have. The way that I might shine, for instance, is only so bright, but when you add some other people to that who share a common conviction around what it looks like to embody the way of Jesus, it's more noticeable.

Katie: 43:13

Yeah, yeah, that's a really cool example. That's really cool. That's yeah. Yeah, I also heard you talk about just utilizing our God given gifts. I think there's really something to that. You know we can.

Katie: 43:27

I think being part of a church community not only helps us discover our giftings, like sometimes you might not even realize, like oh, this is an area I'm really passionate about surveying or leaning into. But then, doing this alongside other people who have similar giftings, we get to edify each other. As we do that in the way of Jesus, we get to sort of disciple other people that are around us. And again, I think there's something unique about doing that in a community that's committed to living in the way of Jesus. It's different than like, oh, I really like tennis, so I'm going to join a tennis club. There's something about discovering your God-given gifts alongside people who are willing to speak grace and truth into your life, who are willing to challenge you, who are willing to speak grace and truth into your life, who are willing to challenge you, who are willing to kind of come alongside you and agree to the same set of values, and who you've given permission to speak into your life that way.

Josiah: 44:18

Yeah, yeah, we have these groups we call leadership intensives and it's like a year long discipleship type of group where you really press into stuff, kind of learn how to hear and respond to God's leading in your life, and the point is to do it and then hopefully you're identifying leaders who are going to go and then disciple others in the same way. And I can think of numerous people who would have never stepped into an opportunity to lead a group who did, because they were discipled in this way in a church community that isn't just here to get along and have fun but is also here to press into the stuff God has for them. And they discovered, like you were saying, they discovered gifts. Maybe they didn't even know they had. And here they are going from I'll just sit back and watch church to now I am discipling others and now those, and they're multiplying disciples. I don't think that opportunity happens just because you joined a gym.

Mac: 45:23

Right, right Now. Again, devil's advocate. I imagine some people might say and I would agree with them that the church is not the only place that you can have an impact, even a collective impact. Right, I mean, there are plenty of nonprofits or other organizations that you can contribute to in ways that are meaningful and are going to have an impact. Right, tons, tons, I mean tons. That's totally true, and at no point are we saying that that isn't the case or that the church is the only place. We're not saying that.

Mac: 45:57

However, one thing I would point out is that there's a difference between cherry picking a nonprofit or an organization that you're going to like, maybe, contribute to financially or with some time and energy. That's different than being a part of a community where all of this stuff is happening. You know what I mean. Like, I'm not involved, for instance, in the. I'm supporting the human trafficking group, but I'm not part of that kingdom community. I'm part of a different kingdom community. So there's something cool about. Hey, I feel, though, connected to that work. Yeah, even though I'm not, like, able to give my primary energy to it. Does that make sense?

Katie: 46:31

Yeah, it's different than just kind of going online and saying, oh, I feel passionate about hurricane relief and you make a specific donation or maybe even go on a trip, like you're focused on that one area. But I hear you saying, when you're part of a church, you're exposed to other areas that are just happening within the same family.

Mac: 46:49

Yeah, there's a sense of we. This is my family and my family is doing this work I'm doing. I'm parts of this work that my family's doing, but this is the work our entire family is doing and I'm just proud of all of that and even though I may not be on the front lines of this initiative, it still represents I feel connected, like that's a we you know what I mean, yeah, yeah, I'd also say that there's a, there's a level of trust that you should be able to have.

Josiah: 47:18

So I say this with a, with a caveat Um, there's a level of trust that I can have that, as I pool my resources and continue to like um, pool my resources and continue to be a part of a local church community, that I can trust that the stuff that I'm doing and contributing is going towards helping and I'm not trying to try to cast doubt towards contributing to organizations that aren't a part of local communities or local church communities. I'm not trying to do that and I also know that-.

Josiah: 47:54

That's what I hear you saying, and I also know that not every local church is managing their resources in a way that you could be proud of to contribute to.

Josiah: 48:04

So I understand that, but in the idea of us being able to collectively have an impact that's multiplied means that if I contribute with my time, energy, resources and with my own gifting and I contribute into this local body, I actually get to have a part to play in deciding how it's all used.

Josiah: 48:27

And I would very much doubt that happens in other organizations. Like I could show up to, ideally and again, not every church this could happen, but I know that we make efforts towards it all the time that I could show up to a meeting or I could say like, hey, I have some concerns, like how are we doing this? Like a church that's very transparent about how they spend money and what they're using their money on, and things like that allows me to pool my resources, be a part of the impact and also get to help shape how it's used, like if I'm, if I contribute towards hurricane relief. That's a very broad scope and I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, do it. I'm just saying that that is different than throwing some money in a pot and walking away, compared to being fully invested and actually being able to have a bit to say about how it's used right, right, okay, so we've talked about, uh, hey, uh, the people of god are central to the heart of god.

Mac: 49:25

We've talked about it's. It's a supportive community that's animated by the love of jesus and the power of Holy Spirit, and we just kind of talked about the impact, the incredible impact that can happen when we come together and work in the same direction. A fourth thing I think that is often missing would be diversity belonging to a diverse community. Josie and I were hanging out with another couple recently and this couple we adore and absolutely love and they're also de-churched Sometime in the last maybe five years or so they stopped attending church and in any case, we were talking and church came up and we have a very open relationship with this couple. There's not a whole lot of contention, like we can just talk openly and honestly and nobody's gonna get puffed up or upset or agitated. So it's just like it's just a very safe environment to be honest and authentic and vulnerable. And the guy just asked me straight up hey, what do you think I'm missing out on? Like we've stopped going to church? Still love Jesus, got some friends that follow Jesus too. That hasn't changed for us, but we just aren't finding church to be an important part of our life and don't really feel compelled to try to find a church. So what would you say? What would you say we're missing out on? And he's like you know, I miss out on worship. He's kind of a musical guy, so he's like I miss out on worship. But that's about it. That's the only thing I could point to, and I said well, man, I do think you're missing out on some things.

Mac: 50:56

The one I'm going to name, though first, is the one you're probably going to like the least. I said you're not having to stay committed in community with people who are very different than you. And his eyes just got kind of big and he's like what do you mean? And I'm like well, I know the people that you're friends with. I love those people too, and you're right, they all do care about following Jesus and so on. But, man, that's an affinity group of friends. You're all in the same stage of life or a similar stage of life. You all have a similar earning potential. You're the same race, you have similar interests, you vote the same. And so I just was like, man, you're not having to love people who are drastically different than you, especially those who maybe grind your gears a little bit. You know or see the world drastically differently than you, and so I just think diversity is sort of a hallmark of the church.

Mac: 51:58

Again, it's central to what it means to be the people of God. You look at the 12 disciples, for instance. That was not an affinity group of similar people. You had a tax collector and a zealot you know what I mean and they're together being discipled by Jesus.

Mac: 52:10

And you look at Acts 2, which you brought up, katie and you see just an incredible diverse community that's taking shape. You have the inclusion of the Gentiles alongside the Jewish folks in the book of Acts, like a major shift of broadening. Who belongs to the people of God? And this is the vision and revelation that you'd have every tribe, tongue and nation right Now. I get it.

Mac: 52:33

Some churches are homogeneous. They're just bigger affinity groups, right right. So that's a fair critique, I get it. Some churches are just comprised of people are the same ethnically, politically, socioeconomically, got that, and that's a fair critique. The fact is that Sunday morning does, uh, remain one of the most segregated hours of the week, and that is a shame, I think. Um, but the church ideally reflects the diversity within the community. It exists and I'll just say I hope our church only continues to go in this direction. But even now I know that we're journeying alongside people who are very different than us. We've got political diversity, we've got socioeconomic diversity in our community, we've got ethnic diversity and generational diversity, and I'm connected to all kinds of people who I otherwise wouldn't be and honestly wouldn't care to be connected to, apart from our common unity in Jesus, and my job is to learn how to love them and walk alongside of them.

Josiah: 53:41

Yeah. You know, yeah, but how many relationships that are you grateful for that are different from you, that you would not have chosen to be a part of that because you were a part of this community um were exposed to, and now you will. You, you now value those relationships.

Mac: 53:56

Tons of them and and what I'm saying, what I said to my friend was like this isn't just diversity for diversity sake. You're actually missing out on your own formation because you're not learning how to love people who are drastically different from you, like I. I just think about my life. I know tons of little kids in our community. We have lots of young families, all the way up to people who are in their eighties, and I love and adore them all Like they enrich my life. And walking alongside people who are in their 80s and I love and adore them all Like they enrich my life. And walking alongside people who are different, especially those who see the world differently than me, and gradually building relationships where we can talk and interact, it refines me as a human being. It refines my character and my love in a way that if we're just surrounded by people who think like us and act like us, we won't be.

Mac: 54:46

I was talking to my dad recently and we were having a conversation about politics and it was not contentious at all. We've been growing a lot in our ability just to hold space around all things political and just really listen to each other and talk to each other. There's a lot of ways we overlap. There's some ways we're different, and I found myself in this conversation just sort of representing people who are different than him in the conversation. So he'd say something I go, you know, dad, followers of Jesus that think about that differently would say this in response to you, and I just kept doing that on various issues.

Mac: 55:21

So, and finally, he just kind of said man, how do you know all this? And I said well, dad, I have to shepherd, like we have a very diverse community politically and I have to love all of them and shepherd all of them towards the person of Jesus. And he just said I couldn't do what you do, at least not now. Why? Because, like, well, he's in a group of friends who think like him, vote like him, et cetera. You know what I mean, yeah, and so my point in bringing that up is and he was being just genuine, like dude, that's tough, and I don't think I could do that. You could do that, though, if you like Committed to it Committed to it yeah.

Mac: 55:58

You know what?

Katie: 56:00

yeah, there's like you said, there's so many different aspects of diversity.

Katie: 56:03

I think that once was one that really sticks out to me of what you mentioned was just that intergenerational piece. You know, like I've got some, I'm fortunate enough to still have grandparents around that are older and I do life with, and that's awesome, but a lot of people don't, at least not in the same area, and again, I don't know what other place you're going to be really having deep, meaningful relationships with people that are much older and wiser and have been walking with Jesus for a long time and just having the benefit of being discipled by someone with that you know from that stage of life, and also, at the same time, you're able to turn around and disciple people that are maybe younger than you or haven't been walking with Jesus as long. And I just I think that there I can point to multiple examples right within our church community of people who are being discipled and discipling at the same time, and the only reason they have that opportunity is because they're part of a church where they're exposed to those relationships that they otherwise wouldn't be exposed to.

Mac: 56:59

Yeah, and this is unique because, when it comes to friendships, I have a lot of agency in terms of who I develop friendships with.

Katie: 57:08

Right yeah, you can join meetup groups. There's like meetup groups online you can literally search by an interest.

Mac: 57:14

Yeah, so I have agency to go. Hey, I really like this person. I want to be intentional with them or whatever. I have no say so over who's part of our church community. People can come, people can go, and I don't get to determine who that is, and neither do you. If you're part of our church community. You don't get to determine who comes.

Mac: 57:36

It's an open door, right, which means that I don't have a choice in terms of like who I'm going to learn how to love Right. And what other space do you have that with? Maybe family? I guess you didn't get to choose your family. You know what I mean, yeah, so, yeah, okay, now I'm stuck with this family. I got to learn how to love them Right. But I'm just saying, like, this is a place where you don't you have to surrender your agency and go. We're creating a community of love. People will show up that I didn't know, didn't get to choose, and we're going to journey alongside one another and they might be very different and those differences could be perceived as a threat. But what I'm saying is, if we learn to lean in, there are also opportunities. They actually refine our character and our formation. It can shape us as followers of Jesus.

Josiah: 58:25

Yeah, and I would argue that it's probably essential to becoming more like Jesus, because we will inherently, as humans, stay in our lane and stay comfortable, and following Jesus is going to involve being very uncomfortable sometimes, and the more we do that, the more we're exposed to that and we learn to love. We actually. Not only is it like oh, I love the people who are hard to love, you actually start to appreciate what someone else brings to the table, and I'm not able to do that just because I hang out with a bunch of people who are just like me, which is why it's so valuable.

Mac: 59:06

Here's the thing about this one. I know we're trying to kind of play devil's advocate. Here's how someone might respond. In all my conversations with people of de-churched, they don't tend to push back on this one. They don't. I think they tend to admit this.

Mac: 59:22

Yep, this is kind of missing in my life. I see what you're talking about. I actually had a friend who is he grew up evangelical, deconstructed, that kind of on the edge with church and we're very close friends and at one point we were hanging out and we were talking about all things politics and he was listening to me talk about how I relate to people across the entire spectrum, kind of like my dad and just like I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to do that because I'm only surrounded by people like this. So I just what I'm trying to name is I've had a lot of conversations around this with people and I don't hear strong pushback around this particular thing that they're missing. In fact, many of them acknowledge it. Yeah, I no longer have that and I feel like it has negatively impacted my formation. I can't interact the way I see you interacting. I've had numerous people say that to me.

Katie: 1:00:20

Yeah. So that's a good segue into what I would name as the next sort of marker of a church, and that's that it would be a transformative community, like what you're saying, mac, is that when we do life with people who are different than us, it'll challenge and grow us and refine us. I heard you use the term refine and I think that's true. I think being part of a church community can help us become more like Jesus. It can help shape our character. I think being part of a church community can help us become more like Jesus. It can help shape our character. It can help us become more like. It can be a place where we go for spiritual direction and, as I think about, okay, well, why is that? What has it been like for my life? I think having a place and a body of people that's again really anchored in the same values, anchored in like we're going to do life the way that Jesus does. It helps provide kind of a counterweight to all the other influences or communities or people around me, like when I'm at a point in my life where I'm stressed or exhausted or overwhelmed or whatever. There are lots of different places I could go to figure out how to relieve my stress, right, like there are all sorts of people with all different ideas of what that could look like, but I think being part of a church is about being around people who are going yeah, let me carry that for you. Like, let me shoulder that burden for you.

Katie: 1:01:35

Or, like you were saying earlier, josiah, if I am maybe leaning into something or doing something that doesn't look like Jesus, I'm around people that I trust to speak into my life or that I've given permission to say like, hey, katie, I'm noticing this.

Katie: 1:01:52

Maybe it's like an unhealthy coping mechanism, or maybe I'm just seeming extra irritable or anxious or fearful whatever, because I've given permission to a group of people to speak into my life and to disciple me and to help point me towards Jesus. I think there's just some transformation that can happen because of that proximity. Is that making sense? Yeah, like you're opening yourself up, saying I want to be transformed, I want to become more like Jesus, and I am giving other people permission that when they see things that don't align with that, when they see myself kind of operating outside my values, to speak into my life, and ideally they do that with some grace and some truth and it's not, you know, done in like a hurtful or condemning or judgmental way, but I don't know that you can do that outside of a group that has Jesus as its orienting center.

Mac: 1:02:42

That's right. So, like at the center of a church community is growing in Christ likeness. And I do know people again, this is a category of de-church that I'm naming, which is those who have de-churched but still want to follow Jesus and I just I've talked with people who try to maintain some rhythm of community, apart from like a larger church body, you know, and I just don't see it happening very well. I'll just be honest I don't see that orienting center being pursued with and alongside other people in ways that are like, truly transformative. I'm thinking of one individual, for instance, who now they're no longer part of a church but they host a small group once a month, and I'm just like, yeah, that's not it. Like when we go back to Acts 2, can you imagine like the Holy Spirit falling on a group of people and the culminating expression of that is a study that you get together to do once a month? Like that is not it.

Katie: 1:03:44

Well, let's just talk about the spiritual disciplines for a second. Okay, fasting, radical generosity, silence, like practicing silence, and solitude with Jesus, practicing a Sabbath All these things they're hard enough to do on our own right, like I feel like it's hard enough to do being part of a church community where people are alongside me are also committed to living life in the way of Jesus and embodying these same things. I can't imagine trying to do those things, to engage these disciplines that point me to Jesus, without being surrounded by people who are also committed to doing the same thing.

Mac: 1:04:14

Yeah, this is sort of like a no-brainer. The church exists to help people grow and become like Jesus and embody the way of Jesus in the world. If you don't belong to a church, it's going to be really hard to find a space or a group of people where that is the center.

Josiah: 1:04:28

That's what you're pursuing, you know what I mean yeah or if you're on your own, you may be left up to yourself to interpret what it is, what it looks like to join God's work in the world. And I think that all of us could probably think of people in our lives who are sort of solo Christians, who kind of go off on their own, and it's really easy to kind of go off the rails, even just theologically, without having some sort of governing body of principles that we're all agreeing to.

Mac: 1:05:04

Yeah, well, again, we're trying to orient to this conversation with like a lot of empathy and compassion. This isn't about proving um, proving you wrong If you've de-churched and look, we're right. Um, again, I want to just highlight most of the people that I've even shared stories about. These are like dear friends and beloved people that I would love to have part of our church community because they're just incredible human beings. But let's shift into it's Praxis time, right.

Katie: 1:05:32

Praxis podcast.

Mac: 1:05:33

Yep, that's right. So if people are listening in, what could they actually do, or embody having listened to this conversation?

Josiah: 1:05:42

Yeah, the first practice I would name is just to pray, and not that that would be the end goal, but start by just asking God what might you be inviting me into? We've heard all of these and we've casted vision for what a church community could be. There's these communal tenants that we're naming that like hey, this is what it means to be, this is what know. There's these, uh, communal tenants that we're naming that like hey, this is what it means to be, this is what we're striving towards. Um, I would imagine that God has a next step laid out for you.

Josiah: 1:06:13

Um, no matter where you are, maybe you're completely de-churched and uh and uh, maybe it's been a while since you've really asked God or spent time praying, and maybe it's been a while since you've really asked God or spent time praying. Pray and ask God what he might be inviting you into If you're a part of a church community. What are some of these gaps that maybe my church community like? I see the vision, but I see big gaps. I would imagine that, maybe praying and asking the Holy Spirit to show you a next step and show you how you could step into helping create these values within your own community and being a part of that.

Mac: 1:07:06

I love that. I think that's a really practical step and, you know, no pressure tactics, no manipulation here, no coercion, just create some space to ask God how might he be inviting you to take a next step forward. And I personally love for people to re-engage, you know, because I think we're missing out on some incredible people being part of our community. But I would love to see if someone re-engages to do it because they really have some conviction that that's something God's calling them to. Maybe a second practice and this is more expectation setting is just to normalize the mess. Again, a huge reason I see people leaving the church is because of church hurt and bad mess. Again, a huge reason I see people leaving the church is because of church hurt and bad experiences. And as we said in our last episode, I get that. I've been on the receiving end of hurt in the church. I've experienced abuse, the misuse and abuse of power and it sucked big time. It was horrible, truly awful. And if that's you, you might need to take some time to heal. Like all of that, totally acknowledge awful. And if that's you, you might need to take some time to heal. Like all of that, totally acknowledge that.

Mac: 1:08:07

But for others of you maybe who didn't experience trauma. You just experienced relationships. This is relationships, and the truth is relationships are messy and that messiness actually helps us grow. You know what I mean, not by running away from things that are messy, but actually facing them, and learning how to stay present and engage grows us as human beings. I'm part of other communities, as I mentioned before. I've been part of our CrossFit gym for seven years and guess what it's messy there too. So instead of expecting relationships to be perfect or easy just because they're happening in the church, I would just say normalize the mess. It's going to be hard. We're broken people crashing into one another, and I'm not saying normalize dysfunction or toxicity, but I am saying if you're going to reengage church, just expect that there are going to be some challenges relationally, and learning how to face those with maturity is part of how we grow.

Katie: 1:09:05

Yeah, that's a good one, yeah. Third practice I would name is I don't I was going to say get outside yourself. I don't want that to sound like.

Mac: 1:09:16

I don't know. I'm offended right now.

Katie: 1:09:19

I mean it in the most loving way possible, but I think it's really common in our culture to take a mindset of like, well, what is this going to do for me, or where do I get out of this and is it worth my time? And I think there's something to affirm there. We want to be discerning about what we pour our energy and our time into. But I think there's something that comes from shifting your mindset from what can I get to what can I give. I wonder what I have that I could give to others and what ways I could serve others in a self-sacrificial way. And I promise that by doing that, you certainly will find yourself receiving more than you expected.

Mac: 1:09:54

Yeah, that's a good word.

Josiah: 1:09:58

Love it.

Katie: 1:09:59

So great conversation today. Maybe to summarize, I would say that each of us here has experienced being a part of a church community in a way that has deeply transformed us and helped us love in the way of Jesus, and it's our conviction that you can't get that outside of a church community. So if you're not part of a church, we hope that we've given you some reason just to kind of consider joining one or taking a step towards doing life alongside a group of people who can help and support you and encourage you in the way of Jesus. And if you are part of a church but not experiencing the type of transformational community that we're talking about, I hope we've given you some imagination to help be part of creating that culture right where you are. We've said before, we all have a part to play in shaping what the culture looks like, and being part of church is just that it's about doing life together in community in the way of Jesus, and we think that's a beautiful thing.

Josiah: 1:10:53

Yeah Well, thank you for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed our conversation and got something out of it. Our next episode is actually gonna be a break from this series, because we do have another episode to finish up the de-churching one, but we are going to do a bonus episode with a special guest on grief.

Katie: 1:11:13

Yeah.

Mac: 1:11:14

Yeah, I just noticed over the years that grief tends to be amplified during the holidays, and so we wanted to create some space as we head into the holidays to unpack why that is and how we can navigate our grief during the holidays. And so we wanted to create some space as we head into the holidays to unpack why that is and how we can navigate our grief during the holidays, especially if you've lost a loved one or experienced some significant loss in your life.

Adam: 1:11:35

Praxis is recorded and produced at Crosspoint Community Church. You can find out more about the show and our church at crosspointwicom. If you have any questions, comments or have any suggestions for future topics, feel free to send us an email. Also, if you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review and if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts.